The liberal template for presumption of guilt in rape cases:

Accusation: 80%

Accused white: Add 5%

Accuser black: Add 5%

Accused rich: Add 5%

Accuser poor: Add 5%

Sadly, the media circus is blurring the lines of the issues here.

JA Adande of the LA Times has it right: http://adandeblog.typepad.com/overtime/

This case is about entitlement. First and foremost, this case is about a group of elitist young men planning a party with the intent of demeaning two ladies from a different class. This is the most damning point in this case for which all the young men are guilty – period.

This case is a revealing damnation of the culture which promotes this elitist element on the Duke campus. The frenzied rush to dismiss this case is a thinly veiled attempt to deny the evil of this elitist culture.

This case is also about race because the young men apparently asked for two black entertainers and were heard yelling racial epithets. Racism remains in North Carolina.

Finally, this case is about a sex crime. Sadly, it is only because of the accused crime that these other grander issues are brought to light. I don’t mean to belittle the horrible issue of rape, but sadly it will be difficult for us to know the facts of the crime because of the need to protect the larger evil – the need for a class of elite to maintain their entitlements.

No, this is not a case about entitlement. It is a case about sports corruption. College sports, at rich schools and at poor schools, with rich players and with poor players, is a sink hole of corruption. People trying to make this out as “elitism” are just political demagogues playing off other people’s bigotry.

azbballfan: What a crock. I don’t know where to begin. First, there have been reports that the race of the dancers was not specified when the players called the escort service (whether true or not, I don’t know). And to my knowledge, there is no report that the second dancer was black; in fact her 911 call seemed to suggest that only the complainaint was black.

Second. Although questionable behaviour at best, most young don’t hire strippers so that they can be demeaned.

And except for this incident, how do you know anything about a Duke elitist culture. Have you talked with students? Have you visited? Have you done a study? Do you have any facts that back up this assertion? I eagerly await your response.

Does racism exist? I’ll give you that one. However, you should know that 80% of the team members were either from NY, NJ, or Conn. Southern boys don’t play much lacrosse. Racism exists to some extent, but I certainly won’t concede that this matters centers around race.

As regards a frenzied rush to dismiss this case as a thinly veiled attempt to deny the evil of this elitist culture, it seems to me that only the defense attorneys are demanding a dismissal, and something tells me their objective has little to do with elite culture preservation. The DA in this case has pretty much said that come hell or or high water, somebody will be indicted, and as far as I know, he is the man in charge of dismissing or not dismissing the matter.

I sort of regret my earlier post inclining all liberals toward a rush to judgment and a disdain for our precious constitutional principal of innocent until proven guilty. There are factions (like yourself) among so-called liberals who see alleged crimes of this sort as a perfect medium to get their panties in a wad and mount their soapboxes for whatever strident hate positions that they so ironically lovingly embrace. This is not a search for truth, in their eyes, but a graphic demonstration of the depravity of rich, elite, white males, the lowest of the lowest of creatures roaming the earth.

Unlike you, I simply want the truth, settled in a court of law, based on the evidence. I would readily embrace a verdict of guilty if so found. Ask yourself, could you and the others crowding your soapbox readily embrace a verdict of not guilty? Or, is the trial just so much irrelevant distraction, anyway?

Now I get it. This is not a case about rape. This is not about an alleged crime. This really doesn’t have much to do with the accused or the accuser. This is about a sociological phenomenon. The only question that remains is whether this is about the culturally elite or sports corruption. Please let me know the answered, when derived.

John,

In an earlier interview, the second dancer said black girls were asked for. Regardless of whether they were, or whether the guys were mad because they were, they yelled epithets.

Young men who hire two strippers to perform acts on each other in a group setting have the intention of demeaning the women. If it wasn’t demeaning, why did they chose to hire someone instead of asking some of their gal friends to do this?

Your’e right about southern players not playing lacrosse (but it’s 55% of the players hailing from NY, NJ, and Conn). Also, we don’t know where the boys hailed from who yelled racial epithets. That night, racism existed in North Carolina as I’m sure it exists elsewhere.

I very much want the truth, but alas there are factions (such as yourself) who wish to hide the existence of horrible behavior behind lawyers and rote denial. If the young men are innocent, why hasn’t ANYONE come forward with their accounts of what happened that night? Why aren’t ANY of the players cooperating with police? Why? Because despite the need to help clear things up, they’re above it all.

The primary issue is the elitist attitude displayed by the players and the school. Unfortunately, Duke happens to be a private school, so the administration’s primary duty is to protect their paying students and their parents. The initial wall of silence thrown around the school and the continued lack of cooperation of the administration with the case makes it worse.

Certainly before all this is over we will know every detail of every mistake ever made by the accuser and victim. Threats of defamation lawsuits will protect the players, the families, and the University.

Sadly, there are those who wish to sweep this under the rug by claiming no crime was committed. We may or may not find out more in the coming weeks about whether any legal crime has been committed. We do know that social crimes were committed, and will continue to be, unless we discuss them.

The hiring of a high powered attorney to protect the image of Duke University only excacerbates the problem. Come on Duke alumns, get your collective heads out of your collective you-know-whats and reach out to the Durham community. Be better examples by teaching your kids to reach out instead of playing the deny at all costs game.

You say you want the truth. If you want the truth, call out for the players and the university to fully cooperate with the police.

Azb: You were polite in your response, and you have forced me to attempt to be polite also, though at the moment, it is difficult.

Strippers hired so they could be demeaned? If this is a universal truth, god help those in the profession. They must be desperately poor or masochists.

Not that it much matters, but I stand by my percentage of players from the named states. It certainly is not a team comprised of southern (hence, racist) boys.

Is the horrible behaviour you cite boys behaving badly, or rape? As to the boys coming forward, three did intially, until all were advised by counsel to say nothing. But, when you say that some should come forward, are you not really saying that one or more should finger the guilty? Would you be satisfied if all came forward and replayed what defense lawyers have asserted—that there was no sex, no sodomy, no beating, no rape. Please actually answer this question.

Please cite in detail facts demonstrating how the players and the school have demonstrated an elitist attitude; how the administration set up an initial wall of silence; and how the administration has failed to cooperate. If you present facts, not opinion, I will listen.

And, I suppose you are saying that at trial, the complainant will mitigate her testimony to avoid defamation suits. Please.

What are social crimes? Are you trying to say unacceptable, but legal, conduct?

Duke University has hired no attorney, high powered or not, at least to anyone’s knowledge. Please do not make up facts to suit your prejudices.

I am a Duke alum… I will try to take your admonition to heart, and change my evil ways.

Let the truth finding process continue.

No, strippers aren’t always hired so they can be demeaned. In this case, they were.

Mathwise – lets see, 17 players from NY, 7 from NJ and 2 from Conn. 17 + 7 + 2 = 26. Now stay with me here, but 26/47 = 55%!!

I suggest it will be difficult to know exactly what happened that night. The rape will be a he said/she said issue. The boys involved have records of inappropriate behavior. The University was made aware of a horrendous charge and chose to sit idly by. They should have immediately suspended those players they could verify were involved until the police investigation could be complete. Their actions are their inactions. Good citizens cooperate with authorities to help uncover crimes.

Yes, I’m defining social crimes as legal, but unacceptable conduct. It is our right as citizens to condemn the acts of others. It is the resposibility of institutions to protect their reputations by investigating the acts of its members and to admonish and expel those they deem unworthy of association.

Duke does not need to hire any special high powered attorneys, there are plenty already on staff. The Committee for Fairness to Duke Families hired Bill Bennett to represent them. Seriously, other than screaming for Duke to better cooperate, what has anyone done unfairly to the Duke families. Why hire a LAWYER to handle what is really a public relations issue. Unless you plan to brow-beat and intimidate anyone who dares lob some criticism. Give me a break.

Unfortunately for all the great Duke alumns, the actions of a few and the inaction of your administration just continue to make this look worse and worse.

Please, let the truth finding process BEGIN

First off: pick one message board to have this fight on, and stick with it. I’ve seen verbatim posts from both of you that appear in this comment thread elsewhere (for example, at TalkLeft).

Whether or not the players are from the south is largely immaterial; anyone can be a racist, no matter where they’re from.

For what it’s worth, I think until we know exactly (or within reasonable parameters) what happened at the party, suspensions and expulsions would be inappropriate, as would a university investigation that inevitably would cross paths with the police investigation and quite possibly be perceived as interfering with that investigation. The one instance where there has been a verified violation of university rules—the email sent by Ryan McFadden—resulted in swift disciplinary action by the university as soon as the university became aware of the violation.

Like it or not, the documented facts that are not in dispute in this case that happened at the party did not violate university policy as it stood on March 13th. If the police bring formal charges for underage drinking, etc., however, much less the more serious allegations that are disputed, the university will be able to act under its existing rules.

There are almost certainly some Duke lacrosse players who continue to be represented by legal counsel (even after the negative DNA results) and yet did not attend the party. Duke president Brodhead said there were “many” players who didn’t attend.

If you are a lax player, why would you need legal representation if you weren’t even at the party ? I have to believe the only reason is so that the police will be blocked from interviewing you. For some reason, the attorneys seem very afraid to allow the police to identify and interview those not at the party.

Paul: I think any player who had to give DNA can reasonably believe himself to be a suspect at this point. Since we have no clue who the accuser has identified as her attackers—and there are even suggestions that one or more of the people she identified were not present at the party, and perhaps even in different states at the time—it seems reasonable for all of the players to have legal representation.

Besides, anything useful that a player not present at the party (beyond “I wasn’t there”) could tell the police would be inadmissible as hearsay. Might be fun blog fodder, though…

Chris: Any player not in attendance at the party can consider themselves cleared. There is a single attorney representing 32 of the 46 players from which DNA evidence was taken. True, any of the 46 can consider themselves suspects.

The question is: If you can assuredly prove your innocence, should you cooperate with the authorities or should you cooperate with those suspects who cannot prove innocence.

Heresay might be inadmissable evidence, but it is a powerful tool in an investigation. It helps the detectives know what they should be looking for.

Moreover, does the university have a duty to protect the students, or to protect the community. The student pledge requires them to protect Duke’s reputation in the community. Can/should the university compel innocent players to cooperate with authorities?

The answer of what the university should/could do is moot. The answer of what they will do? It wasn’t until 1966 that this private bastion of elitism allowed the first black student to be enrolled. Heck, on this day 20 years BEFORE, the first black was alllowed to cross the color barrier. The administration’s inaction promotes the image of the reluctant citizen seeking to protect some ancient rights of treating others unfairly in order to maintain artificial status (and innocence) of elite.

Could the university ask the players to cooperate with authorities at the risk of suspension? It is openly stated within the student code of conduct that the university reserves the right to hold students accountable for violating university policies not explicitly stated. The code also clearly states that the students are responsible for protecting the reputation of the university within the community.

The silence of the players and the university is deafening.

Azballfan,

From one of the articles that Chris mentioned :

“The second dancer then got into a conversation with the lacrosse players, which included hurling racial insults about their manhood, the players told their lawyers. ”

If that is true, it appears that it was the stripper who started with racial insults. :)

Azballfan,

Why are you so obsessed with Duke being “elitist”? 11% of students are black. That’s pretty good, and close to their proportion of population.

How do students have to “cooperate” if they are innocent?

azbballfan: A person accused of a crime under our system of justice has no legal obligation to “assuredly prove” his or her own innocence. Nor do they have any legal obligation to cooperate with authorities while they are suspects in a crime, which providing DNA samples made them. So they aren’t obstructing justice—ironically, Nifong lost any hope of making those charges by compelling them to provide DNA.

Frankly, your view of justice is truly frightening—that the university should require students to either give up their constitutional rights or be expelled from the institution. Those are the exact tactics that have historically been used by private institutions to go after blacks and other minorities who try to secure their civil rights, most notably in the 1950s and 60s in the pre-Civil Rights south when blacks would be summarily fired from jobs for having the temerity to register to vote or participate in protests.

The ultimate test of our society’s commitment to the rights of those accused of crimes is not in the trivial cases, but in the most serious ones. On that score, the university has performed much more admirably than either law enforcement or the prosecution in this case.

Incidentally, I would point out that as a practical matter, Duke no more represents the south than Harvard or Stanford does. You will find very few native southerners in any leadership roles at the institution. If it’s a plantation, it’s a plantation run by Yankees.

Igor: I find nothing amusing about either the players or the dancers using racist language and insults, and one does not justify the other.

Igor,

That conversation happend well after racial epithets were reportedly heard yelled by an uninvolved third party (neighbor of the accused).

Regardless, if you hire someone who yells racial epithets at you after you have put yourself at INCREDIBLE risk of being accused of physical abuse; do you dare to answer back in kind? Actually, the only evidence of racial epithets comes from the 911 tape, in which the caller did not identify herself as a person involved, and the corroborating evidence from a third party neighbor.

I’m sorry, why on earth would a neighbor side with anonymous strippers instead of their neighbors. Unless those neighbors have established a well earned reputation for indecent and improper behavior.

My definition of “elitist” involves feeling that you and your kin are by inherited rights above the need to cooperate with authorities in clashes with the common element. If there is an obsession, it is an obsession of denial on the part of the administration and duke alumns who chose to continue to support the team members in the light of the overweighing evidence against them ALL.

By the way – you may want to check on your facts of black representation within the student (and general) population in Durham. Fox News reported significantly lower black student population figures than 11% (4%). And the same news information source reported something like a 40% black population in Durham. If Fox is wrong, I apologize for the innacuracy.

If students are innocent, they cooperate by allowing themselves to be questioned by authorities and answering completely. It is the right of a charged person to be presumed innocent by the jury and judge before being proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The question for the Duke institution is, is it the right of the accuser to ask for honest cooperation to provide accurate facts to allow for justice to be served?

The Duke student body is about 11–12% African-American. I don’t know where you got 4%. The comparison to the city’s population is silly; few selective universities have anything close to racial parity with their surrounding communities, for rather obvious reasons—indeed, Duke has about the highest percentage of African-American students in the country among highly selective institutions.

It is the right of a suspect, not just a “charged person,” to not answer questions that might serve to incriminate them, not just in the crime being investigated but in any crime whatsoever. If the DA wants the cooperation of players he does not believe committed the rape, he can offer qualified immunity to them for crimes (such as underage drinking, distributing alcohol to minors, possible other offenses) other than the rape that he believes occurred; he apparently has chosen not to do so.

Azballfan,

No, according to newspaper, she insulted them before.

Why Duke has to represent Durham community? Are you serious? It is a national university. Durham might be 100% black, and it shouldn’t matter. It attracts best students not only from USA, but from abroad too. (and not from Durham, so why Durham racial makup should matter?)

I am also sure that some blacks are accepted through some sort of affirmative action, or disguised quotas too.

According to College BOard -

http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=535

Duke is 9% black, but there are also 8% unreported race, so I would assume some are biracial (meaning likely black). That’s why media reported that it is in fact 11% black.

And it is only 53% white (less then % in population). So, not so much elitist or white, in my opinion. Unless you consider Asians elitist and racist too. (18% Asians, quite a lot).

Chris, the point here is that if they used epithets in response to hers, it further weakens the “racist” angle to the story.

I know the DA at least two weeks ago said publicly that all 46 white players should be considered suspects. He shouldn’t have said that, at least not publicly, and those words have come back to haunt him… it’s these words that have given the defense attorneys a justification for not allowing the police to interview any players, not even the non-party-attending players. Your claim that anything the non-attending players might say, is of no value to law enforcement, because it can only be hearsay, misses the point that even information that might not be admitted in court can still be useful in the furtherance of an investigation.

Again, why would you need a lawyer if you weren’t at the party and the DA is guaranteeing that you won’t be prosecuted ?
I disagree with your assertion that the DA has “apparently” chosen not to offer qualified immunity for those who he believes did not commit the rape. To the contrary, I think Nifong probably has offered a deal giving complete immunity to one or more of the non-party-attending players, in return for permission to be interviewed. It would be interesting to know whether any of them have been offered, and if so, have accepted.

My guess is that some of the non-attending players, at least, have been offered complete immunity, but have not accepted on advice of counsel. The defense attorneys know that any statements they might make, even though probably not admissible in court , could still be helpful to the DA in developing other investigative leads.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m inclined to believe no rape occurred. But what if, hypothetically, (1) a rape was committed by party guests who were not members of the lacrosse team, and (2) later one or more of these rapists boasted of this to a non-party-attending lacrosse player friend ? Under these circumstances the police and DA would be very eager to interview the non-attending player who received this communication. But they can’t because the attorneys have blocked them off.

Paul: Your scenario begs the question of why counsel would advise players not to give evidence, even if if offered complete immunity. I could see that if the counsel represented other players who were not at the party (granted, it would be a breach of ethics to put another client’s interests ahead of the one in front of them), but surely at least one player who wasn’t there has independent representation.

Paul—it’s quite common for people to hire an attorney in this type of situation. Just as the 5th Amendment and the Miranda rights allow for people to remain silent without it being considered prejudicial, it is important in our society to be able to hire counsel in an advisory role, even if you have nothing to do with the crime or have nothing to offer in the way of evidence. Simply put, it is just as likely that some players who did not attend the party hired counsel because they simply wanted to have an advisor in this situation (I would!) as it is that they hired counsel because they have some evidence.

Under the law, hiring an attorney is irrelevant to the guilt, involvement or knowledge of an individual in a crime and it should be just as irrelevant to us, the general public, who are discussing this case.

Chris,

Apparently there is one lawyer who represents 32 of the 46 players. This suggests that the number of people involved in the party around the time of the incident would be 14 or so.

Lawyers would certainly advise their clients to cooperate with the police only if there is something granted in exchange. This is what lawyers are taught.

Steve, while true that under the law, hiring an attorney is irrelevant to the guilt, involvement or knowledge of a crime, it should not be irrelevant to the general public. It is fair for the general public who want to know more about this case and want the police to be able to collect evidence to question the motives of people hiding behind lawyers.

The law doesn’t rule society. The rule of law serves society. Society has needs of justice and correctness which extends beyond what what the precise rule of law can provide. This is why there is the court of public opinion. Those innocent Duke players and the university have decided to rely exclusively on the rule of law and the court of public opinion is not satisfied.

azbballfan, I agree with you that the court of public opinion is not satisfied here, and it’s certainly not satisfied for a variety of reasons. To me, though, this is one of the good reasons why we have the rule of law—and more aptly, the process of law— and that is to allow for a more objective and fair process than what the court of public opinion would like. A large portion of society is calling for the guilt of these players and a growing portion of society is calling for the guilt of the woman. Which portion of society is being served? The public opinion is important in reflecting the society’s desires, however it is the legal process that is designed to ferret out the truth from fiction. Hopefully the process in place will lead us down that path. However, the process was put in place to allow people to hire lawyers. It is again irrelevant that the public wants the players to talk. The players are not “hiding” behind lawyers, they are simply moving themselves through the legal process. This is what happens every day in almost every alleged crime in the country. We have constructed the legal process over many years to help us get to the truth. Whoever is guilty, hopefully that is exactly where we will end up.

Chris,

“Frankly, your view of justice is truly frightening—that the university should require students to either give up their constitutional rights or be expelled from the institution. Those are the exact tactics that have historically been used by private institutions to go after blacks and other minorities who try to secure their civil rights, most notably in the 1950s and 60s in the pre-Civil Rights south when blacks would be summarily fired from jobs for having the temerity to register to vote or participate in protests.”

I’m not suggesting the university require the students to give up their constitutional rights or be expelled. I would suggest that this university run by the united methodist church has the right to require any student who is a suspect in a high profile investigation of a heinous crime to cooperate with police . Please point to where in the Constitution where private institutions have no right to hold their members to a code of conduct.

I ask everyone to remember that many of the students involved are scholarship atheletes. That is, their education is being paid for (sponsored) by the University because of their being a member of the lacrosse team. At this time, their continued membership on this team is in question. I wouldn’t be suprised to see the school eliminate men’s lacrosse for a period of time.

Finally, I don’t know why people keep on talking about NC being in the south. Frankly, I see it as being in the Bible belt.

In this case any lawyer advising a non-party-attending player not to accept an offer of complete immunity in return for granting the DA or police an interview, would be doing an extreme disservice to his client, maybe almost committing legal malpractice. And if that attoney also happens to represent a player, or players, who did attend the party, he or she would have an unethical conflict of interest, as you seem to recognize.

Steve, I understand and completely agree with the idea that it’s smart to hire an attorney even if you have nothing to do with the crime or think you have nothing to offer in the way of evidence. But if you are a non-party-attending player and hire an attorney for just the purpose you recommend, and you are offered a written,signed immunity promise, guaranteeing you no future prosecution, no matter what you say in an interview, you would be a fool not to take the offer.

Paul: that would seem to indicate, again, that either Nifong hasn’t made immunity offers (because he wants to nail as many people as possible, even for the penny ante stuff) or there are immunity offers and we aren’t aware of them; by my count, there are 4 lawyers representing about 37 players who have spoken to the media, which leaves about 10 unaccounted for, including the black player who is not a suspect and thus has no reason not to cooperate.

If we were dealing with any other prosecutor, I’d be putting my money on scenario B, but Nifong has yet to show he can successfully prosecute anything beyond a traffic citation, so he could really be as incompetent to deal with a serious investigation like this as his lack of media savvy would suggest.

You could be right about your Scenario A but I’m leaning to Scenario B ... my guess is he’s made an immunity offer to the black player and others and may have even already been able to interview the black player and get some leads for further investigation. I think you’re selling Nifong a bit short – he was relying a bit too much on the medical experts at first and went public too quickly, but now has wised up and kept hs mouth shut for a couple of weeks.

Will be interesting to see if a Grand Jury convenes this week and what they do

I not necessarily a fan of Nifong, nor am I a detractor. It’s interesting how the press became focused on the DNA evidence. Nifong did refer to the gathering of DNA evidence, but was he releaseing information or merely responding to inquiries? The Duke players referred to DNA evidence on March 28th in a press release. They referred to the collection of DNA as evidence of their cooperation.

How much of the evidence in this case was released by Nifong, and how much is being released by the defense attorneys and players?

There’s little we know about Nifong’s investigation, making speculation that much more enjoyable.

Regarding the statement: “Strippers hired so they could be demeaned” is an unrealistic view, but doesn’t really reflect what every stripper I’ve known or worked with. It’s practically the opposite. All these people fawning over you, trying to get your attention, and giving you couple hundred to a couple thousand dollars a night. I notice the opposite happening where these strippers get “addicted” to the attention and money. I’ve seen nice girls and guys grow huge egos and start dropping hundreds of dollars a night to party – leading to a downward spiral.

“Being demeaned” is a statement used by people who would like other people to think that women are stripping because they’re forced to. Like the untraceable tax-free money isn’t incentive enough!

How is the Duke rape accuser “forced” to strip? She and her kids live with her father, so homelessness or going hungry seems unlikely, and then why is she spending it on drinking so much?” I know taking a few “shots”, or “lines”, or “hits” is necessary to loosen up before a show, especially a “private show”, but to be a sloppy drunk before a show even starts demonstrates other issues. Most people don’t start stripping at 27, so I’m predicting that she’s been in the biz for awhile.

Back to stripping, I’ve worked in a “mixed” club where both male and female strippers performed, and I always was amazed by these men and women who come into these clubs giving attitude that they’re too good to talk to a stripper, but they always sit in the front row to watch the show, and then stiff us on the tips.

Frat and bachelor parties are the best parties for bucks for girls, bachelorrette parties are good for only three to four hundred an hour (including tips), so for guys (strippers) if they want to get tail, stripping for women would get women dragging you to their rooms, but if you wanna make money, you gotta strip for gay men. Men, gay or straight, is where the money is. Women go to strip shows and hold “private parties” still expecting the male strippers to “hit on them”, but men will dump money just to keep your attention, so who is really “demeaned”?

Prostitutes are stupid to “put out” to get money, if you “hold off” you can get your rent paid for by as many “friends” as you can hook in exchange for weekly lunches and friendly emails or texts. You get a handsome/pretty “friend” to make you look good in front of your “day” friends and coworkers, but it’s paid… so who is the pathetic one?

I’m not in anyway endorsing becoming a “stripper”, (and I can imagine how lay-people could confuse being a “stripper” and being an “escort”. As far as I can tell from experience, a stripper sells an image and becomes a living “Ken/Barbie” doll and the “friend” holds on to this image and you just have t feed it. When you get a person horny you can sell almost anything, especially if he’s a man. An escort is a prostitute that advertises in the phone book.) I’ve seen college students, both male and female go down this road. Many don’t get out until they hit bottom because the money and attention is tough to leave. As smart as you may think you are, there are people far smarter than you waiting until you make a mistake. I was a straight “A” student until my senior year, then I barely passed to graduate. I’ve seen many college kids fail and drop out of school for the money, but the money goes hand in hand with drugs. You need to be at least “buzzed” to loosen up to do a show, especially a private show, and I’ve seen guys start with liquor then to harder and harder drugs. And as far as mind-games go, you could find yourself cornered by someone smarter with more experience in “games” and you’ll end up face down biting a pillow, which leads to more drugs, especially for straight guys. Stripping isn’t as demeaning as it is destructive.

As far as the lacrosse guys not talking, specifically for the guys who weren’t at the party: I was at a club one night and this mother gave her 16 year old daughter a fake ID to see the show, and while the mother was enjoying feeling up one of the guys in the corner of the bar, the 16 year old ended up having sex with one of the strippers inside the men’s while stroking two other guys while another watched – one of whom deposited “DNA evidence” in her hair which was noticed later by the mother. The mother cried that her daughter was raped. The best thing the guys did was to keep quiet because people wanted them to say something to “spin”. If the guys said they had no idea the girl was 16 because she showed an ID claiming she was over 21, the headlines would show that they admitted having sex with a minor in a bar, but there’s no story to spin if no one says anything. Likewise, what do you expect the lacrosse boys to say? They already claimed that a rape never occurred, so they have no information, and District Attorney Mike Nifong spun this to claim that they’re hiding something. Why would the team say or volunteer anything in an environment that shows to be bias against them?

The main message here is that whether you be a male stripper or a male college student, whenever there’s an incident concerning gender, the male always get the short end of it, so the best thing to do is to stay quiet and hope the DA investigating the complaint isn’t media hungry or as irresponsible with the investigation as Mike Nifong.

Ryme: Thanks for that information and insight… just a minor point of clarification: it appears that the players did contact two separate escort services, although it’s not clear whether they actually requested strippers or “escorts.”

Chris, good point, but possibly moot. Neither a strip club nor escort service offers sexual acts in exchange for cash. Both establishments carefully collect money only for the gal showing up for a given period of time. Neither offer guarantees of what the gal is going to do there. They carefully state that tips are customary.

Therefore, when the gals arrived, it was up to the parties involved to negotiate what was to happen. Regardless of who they called and what they expected, what should have happened didn’t.

Here’s an excellent take on the incident. Bluntly, what happened was wrong, period: http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-bothers-me-about-duke.html

Chris,

You argue that this case is only about the rule of law and that the players are merely using lawyers in order to move them through the process.

I can agree with you that if these were merely students, that would be true. But these are student atheletes on a national championship team. The school and community provide them recognition, fame, and privileges not offered to the regular student. The question is, do we have the right to ask them to be role models?

It’s not their status as Duke atheletes that has put this story in the press, it’s the fact that they are hailed representatives of the university that has.

As a side note – do you or anyone else suspect that part of the problem stems from the fact that Duke’s basketball team and coach have become media darlings?

Until March 13th, I doubt anyone seriously looked on the Duke men’s lacrosse team—or any lacrosse team—as being role models or exemplars of anything. When was the last time you saw lacrosse on ESPN?

Yes, they have embarrassed the university. And, in return, they have lost their season (and quite possibly—and certainly in the case of the seniors—the remainder of their athletic careers), their coach, and their personal reputations, no matter what the outcome of this case. It seems to me that the innocent have been screwed enough already.

As to the broader point, I have already stated elsewhere in the comments that I believe the university would be quite justified to disband the team and revoke all of their athletic scholarships—not because of their cooperation or lack thereof (or whatever is really going on here), but because the university has every right to regulate their behavior as a team, and their documented and undisputed behavior in this instance—hiring strippers/escorts/whatever—was appalling and unacceptable, even if no violence (rape, battery, whatever) happened. I would not support individual sanctions like expulsion or suspensions, however, in the absence of any evidence that they committed real crimes.

Chris, it seems that at the end of the day, we agree. Maybe this is a sign.

I am a proud alumn of another school. I enjoy the added social connection and nuances offered by rooting for my school’s sports teams. I also respect anyone who roots for their team. Choosing a lifelong allegiance to a team based upon its excellence in academia is something truly unique and special.

I do carefully watch the players on the field/court, etc and expect them to behave in a manner which respects the thousands upon thousands of alumns who support them. Those who love sports – team sport in particular – talk about “purity of the game” and hate to see that purity associated with anything vulgar.

If this were my school, I would call for the team to be disbanded in order to send a message to all the student atheletes and alumni that the standards of the university are high.

Re: role models and scandals. I will point to two very high profile examples.

1) Charles Barkley. After he turned pro, there were many reports of him throwing people through windows, getting into fights, etc. To a certain extent, he hid behind the “I am not a role model” – but to his credit, he openly admitted to every last dispicable thing he did. After retirement, he admitted he was wrong in a few instances when he lost control (when he spit into the crowd at a game and accidentally hit a little girl – to this day he say’s it’s the low of his career).

2) Kobe Bryant. Openly gave a press announcement where he openly admitted that he was sorry for what he did, without admitting guilt to any crime. While noone is going to feel sorry for Kobe anytime soon, he has paid for his indiscretions in lost endorsements and a sustained bad reputation. This case is the perfect example of where the legal system was unable to provide any form of resolution to the community, but the court of public opinion has.

Happy Easter!