Script writers couldn’t provide more twists and turns in a case.

I think in the end there will be some pity for the victim as she appears to have severe mental problems. The ax will fall on Nifong and the Durham PD.

I just posted this to one of your earlier threads. I think she has post traumatic stress from the earlier rape. And just let’s say for argument sake that she was attacked recently; she may have had flashbacks that’s getting everything jumbled. No way is she a viable witness. The only thing that says that she may have been attacked recently (but not by whom) is the SANE report.

Now I completely sympathsize with the woman. I start to see how her life was screwed up by the incident 10 years ago and why she always ended up making bad decisions. She is a real rape victim, though not by Duke lacrosse players. The players’ bad language probably triggered the woman’s repressed anger and traumatic experience with men behaving badly in group that she compulsively made up the story. And she continues to make bad decisions by not talking to the civil right lawyer Willy Gary but allowing black gangsters to take care of her affairs. It looks that this woman has a very strange relationship with the law. It seems that in the presence of the law(police, lawyer, etc.), she’ll always choose the out-lawed (being a stripper, refusing to talk to lawyer, and accept gangster protection).

I bet you is she really was attacked before, she was attacked by someone with a moustache. Thus her claiming one of her recent attackers had a moustache.

Muddy waters….Wait a second. The was no validity to the charges ten years ago. This woman should go down in flames, but it was Nifong’s job to do his due diligence on the case before the indictments.

I feel very bad for Finnerty and Seligmann. The fact that you come from wealth does not mitigate the torture that they must be going through now.

This is entirely the fault of Nifong (abetted likely by extremely poor police work).

This guy’s sorry legal career needs to end, like yesterday.

We are having a national run on extreme arrogance mixed with radical incompetance at the moment (Yes, you, Rumsfeld)

Sorry Chris, but you’ve got to be OUT OF YOUR MIND to even consider this news as anything but an absolute detonation of the accuser’s credibility (such as it was).

LOL! Yeah, SHE‘S the victim, not the poor fellows she’s dragged through the mud.

You guys are off your rockers.

I agree, Chris has lost it entirely. Too many term papers.

Chris,

Thank you for posting the information. It was reported earlier today that the mother discussed the event with reporters.

I look forward to this board moving back to a salient discussion on the scruitinizing evidence and its relevance.

If, as a few posters suggest, the AV concocted this story and a previous story without any reason, then she has a severe mental problem. I’ve had to deal with a sociopath in the past myself and will say that if this is the case, there’s no way the prosecutor can put her on the witness stand. Sociopaths don’t do well in crowds where they aren’t in complete control (a la Saddam).

If she’s not a sociopath, then it’ll be interesting to see how this is used. Since the prosecution goes first, it is in the best interest of the prosecutor to question the AV on this prior event in order to allow her to show her emotions to the jury and to explain her withdrawal of the charges on her terms. It will be difficult in a courtroom for a defense attorney to push too hard with any questions other than to add suspicion.

It’s one thing to read headlines and make salacious assumptions about an unidentified AV in the media. It’s another thing to sit in the same room with her as this is being discussed.

I agree with Sharon that the added shock of a second event is likely to make her a tougher witness. It would also explain why she was in such a sad state after the incident.

Azbballfan…After the incident? At what point are the AV backers going to admit that this probably(definitely in my mind) didn’t happen.

This case will dropped after the 2nd DNA tests come back negative. I hope that the accused players get whatever recourse that is available to them(Duke U, from the AV, Durham etc…).

Chris: This news was hinted at by someone on this site or another blog that you linked to in the last couple of weeks…maybe the commenter at Rachel’s Tavern who was correctly predicting events before they became public. So this Mr. X (Deepthroat seems a little inappropriate to use in this case) definitely has a solid conncection…strange how Finnerty’s attorney claimed he didn’t know about it though.

Possible scenario (outside of those who believe she’s concocted two similar stories ten years apart for whatever reason):

If these women were indeed threatened (even jokingly) with sodomy with a broom, if she was indeed raped before, she might have suffered a psychotic break, reliving the prior rape. But still, I like to hear Nifong explain this oversight – and what are the injuries the SANE nurse saw. If this woman was gang raped before, and she found herself in a hostile room (because of the money issue, the racist epithets), add that with her drugged or intoxicated state, her mind could have thrust her back to the previous attack, and if somehow she was attacked in this case, she’s gotten facts, like the moustache, confused.

Sharon brings about a plausible scenario, We also have to factor in that the first rape also never happened and she is just delusional.

My guess is that the SANE report injuries were a result of her job as a one on one escort.

This whole thing falls on Nifong and the Durham PD(esp the incompetent Gottleib) though. There are a lot of people with mental problems out there and they should have done even C+ invetigative work before they indicted Seligmann and Finnerty. This will set rape victims back 20 years. I hope that Nifong is disbarred and publicly humiliated.

Dan,

I apologize, I had no intention of flaming – the reference to the incident is whatever happened that night. I thought it was better than alleged rape.

I didn’t know this was a forum for taking sides and making assumptions. I see that Talk Left has some good blogrolls for that.

I’m for both the AV and the players. If the AV proves to be a sociopath, I feel very sorry for what the players are going through. I would also hope that the state finds mental help for her.

If the players did something wrong, I hope this is brought to light so they can similarly be treated for an impaired mental condition. I do wonder at this point if the players would have been better off if they had cooperated with authorities. It would be much easier for the proper authorities to conclude their innocence with their cooperation and their life stories wouldn’t be dissected and used to discuss the issues of rape, privilege, and race on every newscast, paper, and news magazine.

Sharon, I also hope to see more from Nifong on this case. I hope, though, he waits until after the election and at the appropriate time in front of the judge. Now the prosecution and defense can enjoy the oversight of a judge in court over the proceedings.

Azbballfan…I here your point about the players prempting this debacle by coming forward, but I don’t think that they had any confidence that Nifong would handle it correctly as he essentially had a witchhunt. The players lawyers probably did the right thing here. I just don’t think that Nifong or the Durham police are trustworthy.

Other factors indicating that she may have a mental problem: I read at CourtTV that in the earlier incident with the cab, prior to the theft, she was in the club and had to be coaxed out from beneath a table where she was hiding. Has anyone else heard this? As she was intoxicated in that case, she may be one of a few people who do have psychotic episodes when they drink. Meaning she can be the most lucid person when sober, lucid enough to maintain an A average at her school, care for her kids, and even conduct her business in the sex industry. But when she gets a few drinks (or is drugged), she becomes a different person, as attested to by Kim. She may be open to hallucinations or delusions of persecution.

I’ve only taken a few psych classes decades ago, so I don’t remember how this would go down. But given that she’s the caretaker of two children and the stress of the publicity and death threats has her running, someone in her family needs to have her committed, even if for the short run. If they care more about her than any possible lawsuit they want to bring against those who may be innocent.

I just don’t trust children in the hands of someone who may be of harm to themselves or others. From everything I’m reading recently, she needs HELP. I feel both sides have been played by Nifong’s zealous ambitions.

Re: the club incident, I believe that is what the club manager or owner said in some TV interview a week or so ago.

Without intending to suggest an opinion about the current case, I would like to point out that in the general population, even when considering only reported rapes, it is not as unusual as we might like to think for a woman to be raped more than once in her lifetime. And, evidently, women raped as young people are at twice as likely to be raped as adults. Again I am not suggesting that this determines anything about this case. On the general topic of rape, though, I don’t think we want to assume that 2 rapes is statistically rare.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/svfacts.htm

Well, I’d say the DA may wish to begin considering that his lineup technique really, truly had some fundamental problems…. like picking 2 completely innocent guys at random….....

You just know there’s going to be all sorts of negative career repercusions after this mess is over…... what a slow motion trainwreck this is….....

Re #18: Agreed, although being the victim of two gang-rapes by the same number of people in each incident seems likely to be less common than being the victim of two rapes broadly defined. Not rare enough to be impossible, mind you.

I find this lame attempt at attempting yet another round of speculation now that we all know what happened (to a reasonable degree of certainty) pretty humorous.

A far more likely statistical probability than two gang rapes by 3 men of the same woman is that the posters on this board just don’t want this to case to end. Since they are enjoying it so much, in a perverse way.

I say we leave the unfortunate APs and AV to their place in history, and all get on with our lives.

This case is pretty much closed. See y’all in some other corner of the universe

As I suggested elsewhere earlier, she most likely offered sex for extra pay (like strippers do), but the guys declined (black prostitute – risk of STD, AIDS etc.) She was upset at being rejected and losing extra bucks, so decided to stop “dancing”. There was some argument about the money already paid etc.

Newspapers reported some players’ story that she (or both) made some racial remarks about the guys’ manhood. They probably suggested that instead of sex with them, she might use a broomstick.

When both women went to the bathroom, the guys were concerned that they were doing drugs there. And they wanted them out.

Actually, someone wrote about this version at the CourtTV forum.

Well, dj, as far as I’m concerned you are more than welcome to fuck off elsewhere.

Chris…..How do you think that the Duke administration comes out looking after the fabrication is exposed? They basically distanced themselves as far as possible from the lacrosse team. Seligmann, Finnerty and McFayden were all kicked out of school. Do they have anyway to get their money back(I know its immaterial in the scheme of the case)? Will the university provide them support and protection(from thenew Black Panthers) as they try to restore what is left of their reputation?

I will be a big Duke lacrosse fan next year. The team served its punishment and then some for its boorish behavior.

As I’ve said before, the administration would be more than justified in punishing the lacrosse team (as a team) for the pattern of bad behavior that they have engaged in over the past few years, culminating in this incident. And there are plenty of reasons to shut the team down that have little/nothing to do with this incident that make it a convenient out. Down the pike, I expect that all student-athletes will be held to a higher standard than other students (for example, I would be highly shocked if the university didn’t start to require them to live on campus during their entire undergraduate careers).

As far as the players themselves go, assuming they are cleared they should reinstate Seligmann and McFadyen for the fall; Finnerty’s assault situation in DC puts him in a stickier position, even if he didn’t rape anyone. I doubt anyone is going to get armed protection from this half-assed Black Panther wannabe outfit.

To the extent the students paid for the semester and did not get credit, they may be able to get tuition refunds if they weren’t on scholarship, but I really don’t know all the ins and outs of that. They may be granted incomplete grades and allowed to make up the work over the summer instead, which would probably be the fairer solution (why make them sit through 8–12 weeks of a repeated class?).

I do not think Duke University should have any remorse on their disciplinary action towards Finnerty and Seligmann. How would the university know whether the two are falsely accused and convicted or not? Of course the University could not have made a special case for them. However, I do think Duke University administration should have come out to apologize to the public as soon as the neighbor Bissey stated that the players had used racial slurs. The boys may not be rapists, but a lot of them are really racists and sexists. I even think that after the case is dropped or the players prove innocent, the whole team should come out to have an open apology to the Trinity Neighborhood and the Afro-American communities in Durham, too.

We aren’t talking about two alleged rapes, we’re talking about two alleged gang-rapes and -beatings, one of which is allegedly white-on-black, which are as rare as hen’s teeth. Yes, let’s talk statistics:

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/kathleenparker/2006/04/19/194220.html

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/04/duke_race_and_r.php

Sometimes I wonder whether things would be all different had the players just paid the two dancers $800 that night. Everyone of them including those were not at the party has to pay more to the lawyers now.

Svigor – I’m sorry but your post sounds a little racist.

This case is about 1) two strippers who put themselves at risk by performing a show without a bouncer to a group of atheletes who have proven to be a bit over-amped in their behavior 2) young men who made a bad choice by putting themselves in a bad situation where clearly the gals were upset and 3) a group of men who have pledged themselves to each other for something greater than themselves (team spirit) and 4) a gal who has had a history of severe stress and finally 5) both sides have a history of making bad choices.

With regards to the rest of your references to studies et cetera. No disrespect to the studious types, but all those studies are worthless. Anyone who’s lived in the real world will tell you.

Finally – all I have to say is: Orenthal

Muddywater – you hit the nail on the head. At best, this situation is about a group of young men who could have afforded to pay off a sociopath to go away (ALWAYS the smartest thing to do if you’re ever in this situation) – worst case some guys gave a gal a date rape and who knows what was done to her (certainly she won’t remember).

#26— And exactly why should those players come out and make an open apology to the Trinity Neighborhood and the Afro-American communities in Durham? I seriously think there is little chance these young men are really “racists and sexists”. The media across America portrayed them as such, with major assistance from Nifong, who should hang his head in shame. Those Trinity neighbors could not wait to join the cause, condemning these students – there is a huge distance between rape and a rowdy group of people. The neighbors just had to get their “two cents worth” of retaliation against these students. What a class act – were they ever young?

Then there is the LV’s (AV’s) school – all pumped up by the statements Nifong made. Oh yes, “I’m convinced a rape occurred and I’m going to see it through.” What a scumbag. His success: showing what an ass he is and causing racial problems in Durham. I wonder if things will ever be the way they were before this event “happened”.

Of course, Duke did a great job standing for her students. From the first, I thanked God I did not have a child there. The least parents can expect from a college, is a modicum of protection for their child, not instant condemnation and then suspension once an unscrupulous DA gets an indictment. I wonder how many parents are having second thoughts about sending their children to Duke. It is always comforting to know your child will have the support and benefit of the doubt when something arises. Not from Duke…

Now for the big question: #26, who is going to restore the reputations of these 2 men who have been ruined? Their names are all over the news and this will not be forgotten. If they want jobs, their names will be Googled and this will appear. It is reported the rest of the team is having trouble transferring to other schools. Some of those graduating, with job commitments, are concerned about actually getting those positions after this.

I feel certain Americans well-remember the Trinity neighbors as they spewed their hatred of the students, the statements Nifong made, the statements Duke didn’t make and the garbage coming from the student body at the school attended by the “victim,” the same person who stated this was a racial attack. To top things off, if she is being protected by the Black Panthers, that really brings things full circle, does it not?

The town of Durham and her out-of-control DA, seeking reelection, really need to apologize. They should beg these students for forgiveness. After all the hours the students at Duke have donated trying to make Durham a better place, through much time and effort, this is beyond the pale – way beyond anything I have ever witnessed.

Three things. The accuser was sexually molested that night. She didn’t make that up. She has the injuries to prove it. The accuser was in a house that night stripping before drunk, aggressive, and threatening Duke students. She didn’t make that up. No one is denying this didn’t happen. The accuser was out of view in a bathroom in that house that night for an extended period of time. She didn’t make that up. No one is denying this didn’t happen.

In summary a woman was raped somewhere that night. And one of the places she spent time was in a house full of drunk lacrosse players.

The truth of what actually happened that night may never be known. But whatever happened to the woman that night was horrible and real. I’m not saying she was raped by anyone from Duke. But she was raped by someone. And right now she is going through a second hell. It’s no wonder that women seldom report crimes of rape.

Two other things. There are no winners in this tragedy. And no court of law is going to achieve any sort of justice for anyone involved.

For those who are upset about the University allegedly suspending the players who are accused.

I will just point to a bigger case out of USC. The team which has played for the national football championship for the last three years just lost their starting quarterback for next year. On Tuesday night/Wednesday morning, Mark Sanchez was accused of sexual battery and arraigned on “suspicion”.

The University took action by immediately suspending the player – just days before he took his last final.

Regardless if he is exonorated from these charges, he will lose his academic eligibility for next year.

Certainly USC football is a much larger stage than Duke lacrosse. Just something to think about when expressing your outrage on your administration’s actions.

I happen to be an alumn of a school who had some problems with atheletes’ boorish behavior in the late 1990’s. I’m proud that my school took decisive action to remove both the students and coaches – of both our football and basketball programs.

1. I think it’s wrong to urinate on the neighbors’ lawn and have loud parties that shows no consideration for the neighbors at all.—> These things are wrong, and the boys should apologize to the neighborhood for the disturbance over the months.

2. I also think that it is wrong to use racial slurs, particularly one that invokes one’s privilege and power over others in the past.—> Racial slurs are offending to a whole large group of people. Good boys do not use this kind of bad languages. Anyone should apology for having said that.

3. Damage to the boys’ reputation?—> If the allegations prove false, the boys should demand apology and compensation from both the accuser and Nifong.

At least that’s how I would teach my kids. We have very little control over how other peole may ruin our lives, but we do take control and responsibility of our own behavior.

I do not think the Duke players raped the accuser. It’s unfortunate that their lives have changed because of the false allegations. However, they did disturb the neighbor on the long term basis, and they did use inappropriate language. These facts do not change. They don’t need to take responsibility for what they have not done, but they do need to take responsibility for what they did. If they had come out earlier to say that they apologize for having disturbed the neighbor and having used racial slurs while engaged in an argument but they did not really rape the girl, perhaps more people would have believed that they did not commit the crime and that they are still redeemable good boys.

According to Time Magazine, the cab driver reveals details that cast doubt on a key to the defense’s timeline alibi. Further, Time alleges that the timestamp has been altered on one of the digital photos released to the press, thereby contradicting the alibi for the defense:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1187945,00.html

Why the Duke Cabdriver Could Also Help the Prosecution

Using Mostafa’s statement, prosecutors are certain to attack what has become a very public set of alibis for the defense — the series of allegedly time-stamped photos taken by players the night of the party, some of which have been leaked to the media.

The crucial photo was taken, defense sources say, at approximately 12:41 a.m., and shows the accuser calmly being helped into a car to leave the party. Taken together with other time-stamped photos from earlier in the evening, it is crucial to the defense argument that there was not enough time that night for a rape to occur. In fact, prosecutors will argue, that photo actually shows the accuser being dropped off at the party, not leaving it, and that it was taken well before midnight. In that photo, the accuser is shown in a black or dark-colored car, which matches a description of the car defense and prosecution sources say dropped her off at the party. The person in the driver seat of that car allegedly is not Kim Roberts, whom prosecutors will argue drove the accuser away from the party after the alleged rape.”

Peter…Give it a rest. There was a bombshell story about an alleged past rape and you are posting old news about a cabbie misidentifying the color of the car. The timeline is still in order as the person getting in the car doesn’t have her shoe on. This was a desperate attempt by the unprofessional prosecution. I really think that some people have so much bias that she was raped that they are incapable of evaluating the facts and statistical probability of the case.

Great post by Helen

Flyonthewall…Once again she had injuries “consistent” with sexual assault. Most rape nurses will always come to this conclusion when an AV states that they are raped. This woman was essentially a prostitue(one on on escort dates) for a living so the fact that she has trauma down there shouldn’t be shocking. You are very gullible despite a plethora of damning evidence that this whole thing was a fabrication. I would hate trying to convince you as a jury member as nothing short of having the players in another country would expulcate them.

To: Flyonthewall

FOTW wrote:

Three things. The accuser was sexually molested that night. She didn’t make that up. WRONG.

In summary a woman was raped somewhere that night. WRONG

The truth of what actually happened that night may never be known. WRONG

But whatever happened to the woman that night was horrible and real. WRONG

But she was raped by someone. And right now she is going through a second hell. WRONG

And no court of law is going to achieve any sort of justice for anyone involved. WRONG

Gee, besides the above, do you have anything else to add?

Bravo, Helen! This blog has consistently provided some of the best posts on this whole affair and yours is the best I’ve seen concerning the ramifications of this whole debacle. Those elite students that are so reviled by the good people of Durham will, in the future, choose to attend other universities in cities that are more welcoming.

This site has by far the best writing I have seen on this case.

Duke was spineless during this whole ordeal. I realize that they have to cover their a$$, but the administrations true color is shown by how it reacts to adversity. Nifong really inflicted some major damage on one of the world’s great universities. All of the community awareness rallies and the thousands of hours of community service will not even come close to repairing the damage that this case has caused.

I also attended one of the prep schools of one of the accused and I couldn’t be any prouder of the way the headmaster stood behind one of his own during the darkest hour(right after the indictment).

Chris,

I believe the story of the prior rape and medical history was broken by the accuser’s family in an interview with Essence magazine. The “white” press followed up on that article. The father has also been speaking to the press about his daughter’s past history.

Family Defends Daughter’s Painful Past
The parents of the alleged victim talk to ESSENCE about their daughter’s medical history, a previous sexual assault and why they believe their daughter isn’t getting a fair shake
By Kristal Brent Zook
http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/takeastand/0,16109,1188001,00.html

“The mother also told ESSENCE that when her daughter was 17 or 18, she was raped by several men, one of whom was someone she knew. The attack took place in the town of Creedmoor, about 15 miles northeast of Durham, and was a “set up,” according to the accuser’s mother. Although other family members confirmed that the alleged victim reported the incident to police in that jurisdiction, the young woman declined to pursue the case, relatives say out of fear for her safety. Officials from both the Granville county sheriff’s department and the Creedmoor police department said they were unable to locate any records of the incident. They also added that this does not mean that the assault did not occur”

I think this thread may be getting a little ahead of the curve. Something occuring 10 years before that has many similiarities to the current charges does play out well on cable news and the internet. But it does not change evidence collected(or lack thereof), nor witness statements.

The defense needs to be very careful how they deal with this latest revelation….they are and will do their best to trash the AV, and this latest twist in the case may in fact be a double edged sword. The AV has a difficult past, that was known beforehand. How she was trying to better herself through military service and attending college shows someone working to make better of themselves, IMHO.

WRAL is reporting on its website this morning (http://www.wral.com/news/9067482/detail.html)
that Nifong called the Creedmore police this morning—which suggests either that he didn’t know that the accuser had filed this report; or that he didn’t know the full story. The report added, “Reached by WRAL after the news conference, Nifong said that he was not planning on dropping the case against the two Duke lacrosse players charged with rape.”

To me, this is an extraordinary development. The DA secured indictments against two players: without bothering to ascertain whether one or both had documented alibis; after using a photo ID lineup array that didn’t conform to state suggested guidelines and which featured the accuser claiming that her third attacker had a mustache, even though no players had a mustache; and now, it appears, without looking into the accuser’s having previously filed a police report claiming that she was gang raped by three men, in a description that seems remarkably similar to her current allegations.

It might be, of course, that there are explanations for all of these issues that can be reconciled with the accuser’s current allegations. But for a prosecutor to have secured indictments without even having investigated these matters?

Exactly….I know that a prosecutor has immunity in most circumstances, but I am wondering if he can get in trouble if exhibited some sort of malpractice or gross negligence. I hope that he gets disbarred.

The AV did not get an honorable discharge in the military. She most likely did something wrong there oo. Toucs is trying to spin her past despite ovewhelming credibility flags all over the place. I hope that she gets her pysch counseling from a prison cell when these allegations are proven false. She has set rape victims back 30 years.

I have seen bits and pieces posted related to her military service…did she leave early and what were the circumstances?

Dan, see NC Rules of Professional Conduct 3.6, 3.8, and 4.2. http://www.ncbar.com/rules/rul_adv.asp?type=V . If the DA runs into any trouble with the Bar when this is over, it would most likely be in regards to one of those rules. Note that I’m not implying that the DA has committed professional misconduct. But what I am saying is this: with all the acrimony and fingerpointing that will likely occur when this case comes crashing down, I would be surprised if all sorts of accusations of professional misconduct didn’t get levied. One member of the defense already strongly suggested that there would be charges of professional misconduct levied against the member of the defense team that leaked the photos to the media. With the nastiness of the case and the legitimate questions about the DA’s handling of it all, I’d be very surprised if the end of the case was truly the “end.”....

Succisa virescit

Tuocs,

It was previously reported that she received a discharge the reason for which was not made public. However nine months after the discharge, she gave birth, leading most to conclude that pregnancy was the cause.

Irielax17, I’m becoming convinced that the DA would continue this thing even if the AV recants and refuses to cooperate….. and it does seem like no piece of evidence, no matter how completely exculpatory, matters one wit to the DA. He may yet prove me wrong, but I’m not holding my breath…...

Copy, and she did not serve out her full tour then? Does the military typically discharge pregnant women? I am not trying to pick a fight here, just filling in the blanks.

Have we seen anything substantive as to where the AV was and what she was doing before the party, e.g. that day and evening?

Her Duke gig paid $400.00, or $200.00 an hour—a lawyer’s hourly rate. Yet, she was 30 minutes late!! Either she must not have needed the money THAT badly, or she was “busy” elsewhere. Hard to believe that it’s not worth looking into.

Maybe a fight with a boyfriend and then a little rough making up, or something else with a john from earlier in the evening? Could explain her bruises, cuts, and SANE – reported injuries.

We’ve all heard that a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich. Has Nifong found and indicted the offending broomstick yet? (Sorry—this has gotten so bizarre I couldn’t resist). Seriously, though, is there a broomstick with her DNA on it?

Irielax17, there is real irony with some of the Duke students involved in this mess and the latin phrase you used there.

The idea that a medical examination can “prove” a rape occurred is totally absurd.

Ever heard of rough sex folks? Christ.

When an examiner issues a report saying the examined “has injuries consistent with rape,” in plain English that means “she had rough sex”. That’s it.

Mmmm, I wonder if there’s a possibility prostitutes frequently have rough sex.

Anyone? I’m drawing a blank here.

The woman had a flashback of a previous tramatic repressed event. I have seen this happen to my brother where he was convinced he was in an ambush back in Vietnam. She will need a lot of help to make the flashbacks go away.

Dan: Sorry for this long post, but I googled SANE in an effort to find something in its training or literature that would call for a SANE nurse to draw the conclusions and make the public statements that the Duke Medical Center nurse apparently made about whether any sexual activity was “consistent” or “inconsistent” with sexual assault. SANE training and programs apparently are nationwide.

I found nothing in the SANE program supporting the Duke nurse’s authority to draw such conclusions or make such statements.

The closest I could come to a standard was from the Massachusetts Department of Public Health, and it is contrary to what the Duke nurse reported. http://www.mass.gov/dph/fch/sane/index.htm

In the 68-page Mass. protocol that you can view from the above link, it states at pp 9–10:

1.3 The Role of the Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner

The role of the Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner (SANE) is to provide specialized examination and care to victims of sexual assault 12 years of age or older. Specifically, SANEs will: • Assess, provide care for, and document the signs and symptoms of physical and emotional trauma • Collect, document, preserve, maintain custody of, and transfer forensic evidence to law enforcement authorities • Consult with the ED physician regarding the provision of medical treatment, medication orders, and readiness for discharge • Assess risk and offer prophylaxis for pregnancy • Assess risk and offer prophylaxis for sexually transmitted diseases and HIV • Provide education to the patient throughout the examination process • Develop and discuss a discharge and aftercare plan with the patient • Cooperate with law enforcement authorities during court proceedings

***SANEs do not determine whether or not a sexual assault has occurred. Investigators and attorneys will determine the legal significance of the evidence gathered from the patient. The collection of evidence from the patient by the SANE is the beginning—not the end—of the development of evidence for use at trial.

and again, at p. 12:

“3.3 Limitations of Evidentiary Examination SANEs do not determine whether or not a sexual assault has occurred, but rather document the patient’s complaint, note any signs and symptoms of trauma, and collect and document evidence from the patient. It is left to the criminal justice system to determine the legal significance of the evidence gathered by the SANE.”

Also, here’s some of what the AV should have reported. Id at p.24:

“The following information should be documented: 1) Date and approximate time of the assault 2) Number of assailants, gender of assailants 4) Physical surroundings (indoors, outdoors, car, alley, room, area, rug, dirt, mud, grass, etc.) 5) Threats, force, and trauma (note marks, torn clothing, dirt, etc.) 6) Sexual acts (including oral –penile penetration) demanded and/or performed 7) Penetration (or attempted penetration) of the oral, vaginal or anal orifices by a penis, finger, mouth, tongue or object. Also, note whether the patient thought the assailant ejaculated. 8) Suggestion or evidence of weapon(s) and type of weapon 9) Use of any type of lubricant (e.g., saliva, water or gel) 10) Use of a condom”

Finally, if still interested, look at the end of the text at p. 30, where the Mass. SANE guidelines counsel in a black box:

“SANEs do not determine whether or not a sexual assault has occurred”

In her effort to be helpful, was the Duke SANE nurse practicing beyond the bounds of “SANEity”?

Chris: Bring your video camera:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/04/26/News/Panther.Group.To.Rally.On.Campus-1896418.shtml?norewrite200604281818&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com

Jim…Great research. I assume that a corresponding physician would also look at the AV. Does it say anything about a tox report?

Jim,
I believe this case and the nurse fall under North Carolina jurisdiction and health care guidelines.

That said, please note that stating that the evidence is consistent with sexual assualt is not a determination that sexual assault occurred.

Also please note that the same Commonwealth of Massachusetts Department of Public Health’s website you referenced lauds the use of SANE testimony as evidence in rape cases. Indeed, it points to 51 rape convictions based upon SANE testimony.

To date, no courts have disputed the validity of SANE testimony in any case.

In probably the hardest fought case against the use of SANE testimony, Gonzalez v. State of Texas, 1991 WL 67061 (Tex. App. Hous. (14 Dist.)), the courts upheld the expert testiomony of the SANE nurse.

Dan: At pp. 29–30 the Mass. document reads:

“10.13 Discuss the Evaluation and Management of the Patient With the ED
...
Alcohol and/or drug screening should be ordered by the ED physician only if medically indicated: not routinely or for legal purposes. These tests are usually performed only if: 1) indicated by the patient’s medical condition (e.g., progressive lethargy or significant toxicity); 2) the patient has been forced to ingest a substance; or 3) the patient is concerned about the type and/or quantity of the ingested substance(s). Specific consent for testing and disclosure of blood alcohol and toxicology screening results must be obtained prior to testing, according to MGL 94C. Any toxicology testing for the potential purpose of prosecution must utilize the Massachusetts Toxicology Testing Kit, which is processed and analyzed by the Massachusetts State Police Crime Laboratory only. These specimens should not be sent to hospital labs. Please see appendix for protocol for Comprehensive Toxicology Testing. Patients who are not reporting the assault to law enforcement can have the Toxicology Testing performed, when indicated, and have the results accessed via a hotline number, 1.866.269.4265. 10.14

Collect Evidence and STD Specimens The SANE/ Medical provider performs only those parts of the physical examination and evidence collection that the patient has consented to.

• If the patient has declined evidence gathering, proceed to the physical exam and treatment

If patient does not want evidence collected, document her/his reason(s) in the SANE chart. For example, “Patient not able to tolerate the procedure at this time” or “Patient is very upset or emotionally traumatized—declines exam at this time.”

• If the patient consents to evidence collection, the SANE evidence collection protocol should be followed. Use the Massachusetts Sexual Assault Evidence Collection Kit. Explain each step of the process and any findings to the patient as the evidence collection proceeds.

We would like to thank Lisa Mc Govern through the MA District Attorney’s Association and the Executive Office of Public Safety for contribution and dedication in improving the standard of evidence collection procedures throughout the Commonwealth for all victims of sexual assault.

SANEs do not determine whether or not a sexual assault has occurred”

azbballfan: No doubt NC standards control. Like I said in my prior post, I googled and only found a MA document on point, and thought I made it abundantly clear that it was from MA, not NC.

If you have some NC controlling authority (a la Al Gore) to share, instead of simply jawboning about what I gratuitously looked up for the thread’s edification, please do share it. I’m all eyes and ears.

At the same time, are you suggesting that the SANE nurse’s opinion about “consistency”, as opposed to specific facts about bruises, scrapes, etc, which are referred to in the MA, KY, and other SANE sources I scanned, should be admissible?

As I would guess you know, there’s a difference between facts and opinions. That’s why God created expert witnesses.

Jim,

Thank you for finding information which would be relevant if this happened in Massachusetts.

I haven’t found any standards or guidelines set forth for the NC medical community for SANE evaluations.
However, the NC Coalition Against Sexual Assault does provide a benchmark procedure from a hospital.
http://www.nccasa.org/SANESART/SANE/SANEProgramDevelopment/Protocols/MariaParhamHealthcare.pdf

You made an important point – rape is not a diagnosis and it is not the responsibility of nurses and doctors to diagnose rape.

SANE does provide a procedure which is designed to collect the best forensic evidence possible while maintaining the rights and well being of the patient.

Interestingly, in the attached procedures, the nurse is instructed to NOT scrape under the fingernails for evidence if there is a report of struggle which would indicate material may be under the nails. (emphasis theirs, not mine).

Acutally, I’m not the only one suggesting that the SANE nurses’s opinion should be admissable, I cited the Texas case and you provided reference to the website which clearly states the commonwealth of Massachusett’s own preference to use SANE testimony.

Also, SANE testimony is lauded by the United States Department of Justice to be expert testimony.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/sane_4_2001/welcome.html

God doesn’t cretae expert witnesses. Training and research does. I suggest you work on improving yours before making personal attacks at other contributors.

“God doesn’t cretae expert witnesses. Training and research does.”

I thought it was judges who do that.

Jim,

Thanks for this information, and the effort involved in finding and posting it.

That said, I think you’re being a little harsh on azbballfan…

Yes, so SANEs don’t determine whether an assault has occurred. That’s what is being determined through the police investigation, the DA’s prosecution, and ultimately, a jury’s finding of guilty/not-guilty.

There is a big distinction between “determining whether an assault occurred,” and “noting that the injuries are consistent with sexual assault.” I would hazard a guess that SANEs have enough professional training to know what the physical results of sexual assault look like, and could compare an alleged victim’s injuries and say, “looks like they’re consistent with other sexual assault injuries,” or “doesn’t look consistent.”

The SANE would then be able to take the stand and testify to that, and yes, would be considered an expert witness.

I was more of the view that we were attributing the judicial system to the wrong deity…

azbballfan:

Notice that USC didn’t announce they are going to cancel the football season. No investigations were ordered into the culture of the football team. And it was reported in the LA Times that since it is so close to the end of classes, that he’ll likely be allowed to take finals and will still be eligible to play next year. And USC hasn’t consistently dealt with alleged assaults this way…I wonder if they were influenced by the Duke case.

Anyway, I think the person who was really screwed by Duke adminstration was McFadyen. He got suspended from school because the DA decided to leak an email that was (understandably) threatening without any context. How do the administors rationalize this action? Are they going to read all email sent by Duke students and see if it could be perceived as threatening and then suspend them from the university? Can anybody complain about an email (even if not intended for them) and get a student suspended?

So after keeping quiet, Nifong pipes up today that the AV’s claim of rape of 10 years ago many not be admissable. Why?

Jonsey:

Yea, I think that McFadyen got thrown under the bus by Duke’s administration on that one. At the time the e-mail was released, there was so little information out there about this case, the content was taken completely out of context.

The students did use a university sponsored e-mail account. I’m sure the university has some standard requirements that university e-mail not be used for threats, etc. Standard lawlerly cover your butt type stuff. Regardless, McFadden got thrown under the bus.

Yea – USC hasn’t cancelled the football season. Although in this case, the accuser was able to identify the alleged perp so the University could isolate the issue. I caught the LA Times article this morning which indicated he could still maintain eligibility. Oh well, I thought maybe USC was bending to the need to be perceived better than they are. All that said, the USC football program is consdired to be a bunch of thugs – what Miami used to be.

By the way – for anyone who cares – USC players have had a rash of incidents and arrests only to later have the charges dropped by the DA. After the most recent incident (when a student was beaten and had to be put in intensive care) when charges weren’t brought, some local reporters started to investigate. They found that all the players who had charges dropped in the last three years were represented by a lawyer who worked on the campaign for the DA to run for state Attorney General. In that case, the player in question was quoted as yelling “We own the police!” during his arrest.

Nifong’s very likely wrong on the admissibility issue…. it wouldn’t go in as evidence of past sexual behavior by the AV—the province of rape shield laws—but as evidence relating to her credibility: i.e., the AV reported a seemingly identical gang-rape in the past, suggesting she either fabricates rape claims for some reason or is confusing the current “rape” with the past incident. At some point Nifong’s going to need to look in the mirror and ask himself if what he’s doing is something he’s proud of as a member of the bar and an officer of the court. If he doesn’t, I suggest others may have to take the necessary steps to evaluate whether his handling of this case has violated the NC Rules of Professional Conduct. Sorry to be harsh, but this whole mess has gone off the deep end.

McFayden’s an embarrassment to Duke; I can’t feel any pity for him. What a deranged g**damn email…. in any context. Duke needs scholar athletes, not folks who write about j***ing off after cutting the skin off freshly-killed strippers, even in jest. Is there anyone here who seriously disagrees with this???

RE: The email
I don’t seriously disagree, but it has been my experience that emails are very difficult to interpret intent, sarcasm, humor, etc. when you are just looking at the words without relevant context. Apparently it was a reference to a movie and kids always have their own lingo (killing=sex). Plus I seriously doubt he would have sent it if a sexual assault had just taken place – at least that he knew of. I took it as he was upset over the talent/monetary dispute and could have done a better job placing the order than Captain Dan. Oh yeah, and he was blitzed.

I wonder if the school’s reaction would have been different if it was sent from a yahoo account and didn’t mention “Duke issue spandex”. In the last few years it has pretty much been established, at least with my group of friends, that all personal email, especially with questionable content/links, gets sent to non-work addresses.

Skeptical: Nahh. We’d all like to think higher thoughts, but have to recognize that he probably wrote it in a late-night alcohol and adrenaline-induced moment of releasing his frustrations with some albeit bizarre humor. His tone was light, not seriously threatening.

It was spring break, for gosh sake. He was stuck in Durham getting ripped off at a strip-tease cut short, while a lot of his school mates were balling their brains out—er, uh, I mean sunbathing—in Ft. Lauderdale. Ironically, he’d have been better off if he had been with them.

Azbballfan and devilalumna: Thanks, and I appreciate your views. However, I’m still not buying this case, but it’s all very interesting, isn’t it?
As Irielax17 put it, Succisa virescit.

Jim and NRH: I have an idea… McFayden can take it elsewhere. Maybe that email was his idea of a good joke, but he’s worn out his welcome big time. Yeah, people do all sorts of dumb things, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t repercusions and fallout. He came off as a Grade-A sicko, and sullied Duke’s reputation in the process. There are other schools out there. He can start applying. Duke has nothing to apologize for. In fact, he owes Duke the apology.

Lesson: don’t write deranged, graphic emails about getting off by skinning strippers. Personal responsibility, folks….

SH, I don’t disagree that it was a deranged email, but I don’t see what the grounds for the suspension are. Duke is letting the New Black Panthers march on campus, so it seems they will tolerate hate speech. He only sent it to teammates so it’s not like he was threatening anyone. If I’m drinking at a Duke bar with some friends and someone overhears me make a deranged statement (even if it’s in reference to something else), could I be suspended?

As for your point about Nifong needing to look in the mirror and ask himself if what he’s doing is something he’s proud of, I think he answered that today in his press release. I like the mention of his ethical duties and moral responsiblity. “Not only is the prosecutor not required to presume a defendant innocent, but it would be a violation of his ethical duties to prosecute any person in whose guilt he did not personally believe. And, if the prosecutor personally believes in a defendant’s guilt, it would be a violation of his moral responsibility to the victim and to his community not to prosecute a case because doing so was not popular, or because he was worried that he might not win at trial.”

S-H: In McFadyen’s defense, I’ve sent emails and made comments in conversation (occasionally when drunk) that both (a) might be offensive to others and (b) probably could be taken out of context. Nothing as graphic as his email, mind you, but certainly things that would have embarrassed me and my employer.

He has no history of violent behavior and people who know him seem to like him, so I personally would have no problem with his suspension being revoked, perhaps (as you suggest) after a public apology.

Jonesy: The problem is, Nifong’s deliberately turning a blind eye to significant exculpatory evidence and is relying on highly dubious methodology for choosing his suspects, making his belief in the accuseds’ guilt less than reasonable. I agree that IN GENERAL, what Nifong says is correct re: the ethical responsibilities of prosecutors. But personal belief must be informed and reasonable, not based on unshakeable faith. This has nothing to do with popular v. unpopular…

Also, Duke isn’t letting the New Black Panthers march on campus. They’re reacting to this with the proper amount of caution, and are deploying extra Duke PD to make sure nothing gets out of hand. Their reaction has been right on target… the N&O article misconstrued Duke’s response, from what I can surmise.

As far as the grounds for suspending McFayden…. surely you can appreciate that his email was beyond sick, and that students who demonstrate that level of depravity can be suspended out of concern for the safety of other students. Again, I think all his defenders are wasting their time.

S-H: I can appreciate that his email reads out of context as “beyond sick.” If I quoted (or riffed on) portions of the dialog of any of a hundred movies made in the last 20 years, it would read as “beyond sick” too.

For example, I could quote extensively from Jules’ big speeches from Pulp Fiction, but that doesn’t mean I’m planning to blow someone’s brains out. I sometimes wonder if people realize just how coarse contemporary art (literature, art, and film) is.

Chris, as far as I’m concerned, McFayden can start again elsewhere. The damage he did to Duke cannot be repaired, and his continued presence would only serve as a further embarrasment. If that made it sink in to others that it’s a really bad idea to send emails that sound like they’re from Jeffrey Dalmer, that’s fine. But I have very little sympathy for him, and I’m not interested in excusing his behavior. We’ll see how the administration responds once this is over, considering that it appears that the rape accusation really isn’t credible after all. But I wouldn’t shed any tears if McFayden was encouraged to leave Duke permanently.

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree then… if anything, as a professor at the institution I am far more concerned with the overall (and I hate to use this term, as it’s been coopted by the activist fringe) “culture” of the lacrosse team and student-athletes than this dopey email from McFadyen. If I were staying and he enrolled in one of my classes next year, it wouldn’t bother me in the least.

I think his continued presence on the lacrosse team would be a continuing source of embarrassment, but since I doubt there’s going to be a lacrosse team when all is said and done he’ll just sink back into near-anonymity in the fall unless he makes a point of advertising his reinstatement to the university (remember, FERPA prohibits the university from making a statement about his academic status).

Was the quote truly from American Psycho? Or was it simply inspired by serial-killer pop culture? If it was a true American Psycho quote, maybe there’d be grounds for forgiveness. But if this is just one guy improvising his own misogynistic murder fantasies via email, then I’m not sure the fact that popular culture also is sick really gets him anywhere.

Ultimately, I’ll admit I’m not particularly interested in excusing McFayden. Can’t Duke find students who don’t bring shame upon the entire institution???

Chris, let’s agree to disagree. No hard feelings, I just don’t have the least bit of interest in seeing McFayden rehabilitated and welcomed back to Duke.

But I’d be remiss in leaving this conversation without praising you for your first-rate coverage of this case. That, sir, is something we can both agree on!

I think the consensus is that it’s a mishmash of dialogue and incidents from the movie, which some of the players had rented on DVD recently. Not a direct quote, but probably not reflective of some homicidal or criminal intent on his part—of course, some sort of psychological evaluation of this might be a worthwhile condition of his reinstatement.

More to the point, what specific action of McFadyen’s brought shame on the entire institution? He didn’t send the email to the AP, Mike Nifong, the police, or anyone other than a few buddies, one of whom decided to (arguably) sell his/her friend out. If anyone directly brought shame on the institution, it was the judge who unsealed a warrant that detailed a search of his room that found nothing of any material value to the rape investigation.

Re: the e-mail

Putting whether or not McFayden should be suspended for a moment, I think the e-mail provides a telling insight into today’s pop culture. SH made a good point on this one.

Today’s young adults see the reality TV shows which seem to worship and adore the most selacious behavior. Whether it’s extreme sexual promiscuity, binge drinking, or aggressive behavior, the media is selling a world of excess to our youth. The more you can shock, the more attention you get.

Look at the music industry, the sports industry, the film industry. The more deranged and screwed up you seem, the more press you get. I wonder when the pendulumn will start to swing the other way and embrace some normal person for a change.

Chris, SH, Jim, Jonsey et al.

Thanks for the insights and viewpoints.

Just a quick point on the SANE nurse statements. I believe all statements about the outcome of the rape kit have come from Nifong not the SANE nurse. I haven’t seen any direct quotes from the nurse. So, I don’t see any inconsistency with what the requirements for the nurse taking the data and what we have seen here. I had always assumed that, as a data gatherer, the nurse just gathered this data, and the police and Nifong were the ones who have interpreted to mean “consistent with rape.”

You made an important point – rape is not a diagnosis and it is not the responsibility of nurses and doctors to diagnose rape.

Actually, I think I made that point.

One doesn't need some bureaucrat's press release for that. All it takes is common sense. Determining if consent was given isn't within medical purview.

Yea, I think that McFadyen got thrown under the bus by Duke’s administration on that one. At the time the e-mail was released, there was so little information out there about this case, the content was taken completely out of context.

What Duke did to McFadyen was dirty, and at the time it seemed dirty, too; no need for hindsight here (not that you mentioned hindsight, just throwing that out there).

The media refused to publish the contents of the email for a week or so, choosing instead to troll out-of-context snippets or paraphrasings to gin up as much outrage as possible: I knew better to trust the jackals and insisted on waiting for the actual text. Predictably, when read in full it reads like a joke and not like psychopathy, even without the extra context that it's a direct reference to American Psycho (at least, that's what I've heard; I've never seen American Psycho). It's obviously a joke, the kind a buzzed 19 year old makes when he's pissed about the kind of incident that likely occurred that night.

I knew these guys were innocent the moment their lawyers announced, in vigorous tones, that the DNA tests would exonerate the lacrosse team in toto. Competent lawyers don't do that unless they're very, very sure. I knew this was a witch hunt before I found out Nifong or the Durham P.D. or whomever refused polygraphs from some of the players.

This a witch hunt, carried out by the clueless and the cynical under the banner of the new religion, Political Correctness.

Nifong’s very likely wrong on the admissibility issue…. it wouldn’t go in as evidence of past sexual behavior by the AV—the province of rape shield laws—but as evidence relating to her credibility

Obviously any fair-minded person hopes you're wrong. People are harping that if the AV is lying it'll set rape victims back years...if this evidence is inadmissable it'll set the judicial system back years. Refusing to let a jury hear evidence of prior, similar questionable charges (to say nothing of the simple fact that the odds of being gang-raped twice in 15 years stretches plausibility to its limits) would be plain wrong.

McFayden’s an embarrassment to Duke; I can’t feel any pity for him. What a deranged g**damn email…. in any context. Duke needs scholar athletes, not folks who write about j***ing off after cutting the skin off freshly-killed strippers, even in jest. Is there anyone here who seriously disagrees with this???

Our popular culture is a sewer. Might as well admit it. So, McFadyen isn't a happy exception, so what?

Jim and NRH: I have an idea… McFayden can take it elsewhere. Maybe that email was his idea of a good joke, but he’s worn out his welcome big time. Yeah, people do all sorts of dumb things, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t repercusions and fallout. He came off as a Grade-A sicko, and sullied Duke’s reputation in the process. There are other schools out there. He can start applying. Duke has nothing to apologize for. In fact, he owes Duke the apology.

Lesson: don’t write deranged, graphic emails about getting off by skinning strippers. Personal responsibility, folks.

You need to climb down off the white destrier of piety. No once cares about your moralizing. It's tedious, really.

As far as the grounds for suspending McFayden…. surely you can appreciate that his email was beyond sick, and that students who demonstrate that level of depravity can be suspended out of concern for the safety of other students. Again, I think all his defenders are wasting their time.

Oh brother.

For example, I could quote extensively from Jules’ big speeches from Pulp Fiction, but that doesn’t mean I’m planning to blow someone’s brains out. I sometimes wonder if people realize just how coarse contemporary art (literature, art, and film) is.

Yeah, seems like some want to pretend they live in cloisters or something.

Sorry, meant to say right, not wrong.

I have been reading several blogs that have been discussing the Duke affair, most of which are very left-wing ( like ALAS http://www.amptoons.com/blog/ which is a magnet for Jewish and black feminists, overweight lesbians and other assorted ultra-liberal types). Some even posted pictures of some players, their addresses and their parents’ names. All were furious at white patriarchical priviliged racist rapists who terrorize the good folks of Durham with impunity. The level of hatred for white males was sky-high. It is interesting to note though that recently the posts on the subject dried up. I wonder when all is said and done if those left-wingers would have a honesty and common sense to admit that maybe they have been a bit premature in their judgements.

I remember a week or maybe a bit more after this story broke, I smelled a rat. I knew then that it was likely a hoax and that the jackals in the media would slink away, as would all their hangers-on, if she was shown to be a liar – I knew no apologies would be forthcoming from anyone, not setting straight of the record by our great gatekeepers of truth, the media.

I still think my prediction was right and I’ve even seen signs of this beginning (AP stories about how Duke is “moving on” and such BS).

I am waiting for more eveidence to come out. There is something funky going on with both sides.

The DA confiscated some cameras as part of the search warrant. What if the stuff on those, doesn’t jive with what the defense is putting out? If the times on those photos are altered (very easy to do, even the metadata), then the defense timeline means nothing. If the photos could exonorate the players why, would the defense not do a proper change of custody, so there would be no doubt about the authenticity? Why is there a 30 minute gap in the photos?

These quotes are from a Time article.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1187945,00.html

".....The revelation of a possible contradiction of the time-stamped photos has caused dissension within the ranks of the defense attorneys for the players. Leaking the photos was "a grevious strategic error that was not approved by any other member of the defense," an attorney for one of the players not yet charged in the case tells TIME. "The person who released them did not have the authority. The [attorneys] who are in the crosshairs would make that call. The person who released them is going to be looking at the bad end of a bar complaint after this is over," said the attorney.....

The other thing that keeps bothering me is, why did they claim Reade wasn’t at the party, when they gave the list to the police?

Why aren’t they out looking for a man with a mustache, since that’s who the escort says raped her and none of the lacrosse players have or had mustaches.

This case is a joke. There are two rape accusations against college quarterbacks, one against a black quarterback at USC (USC football scandal!), the other against an hispanic (both within what, the last week or two?) and the media couldn’t care less.

This is national news for the same reason Tawana Brawley became instant national news: the leftist media loves man-bites-dog stories that favor non-whites. There were no white-on-black gang-rapes between 2001 and 2003, but there were roughly 10,000 black-on-white gang-rapes in the same period. Is that news? Naaaaah. Some hoaxing black girl claiming whites raped her is news. Some incredible story about a black stripper claiming rape against a bunch of preppy white guys is news.

Give me a break. It’s a hoax already. Deal with it.

I didn’t believe the story from the beginning precisely because group white-on-black rapes are nonexistent. And in this case we have elite university students from well-to-do families and a ghetto prostitute. Why would high IQ students rape her, especially being in the small house with 40 other students? People have high IQ for a reason – they are able to make smart decisions and understand consequences.

Also from what DA was saying at the beginning one could conclude that they assaulted her without condoms. Again, how unlikely is it that three smart young men would do that with a black prostitute? Would not they be concerned about getting a virus ot two? Are they crazy?

And the more we learned the more fantastic the whole thing turned out to be.

It also shows how dumb that woman is – she somehow believed that people will buy her story without any proofs or supporting facts.

Ted Bundy had a “High IQ”. It didn’t stop his ass from frying….

Svigor:

1) The gal said one of the attackers looked like a photo “but without the moustache”
2) The rape accusation against the USC quarterback: He’s Hispanic, not black. And the media in LA does care. He was quickly arrested and charged the same day. Apparently USC boosters are as screwed up as some Duke boosters as in both cases, the alleged victim quickly received death threats.
3) You claim that there are 10,000 black-on-white gang rapes in a three year period and not a single white-on-black gang rape. This claim is preposterous.

Igor:
No one is claiming that the students are elite or have high IQ’s. The house didn’t have 40 people in it at the time of the incident.

Please be careful to check your “facts” before posting them.

A bit slow, are we? I linked to my source. Characterize the facts as you will, but calling them “preposterous” isn’t exactly persuasive.

The numbers come from the DoJ’s NCVS, gathered by the New Century Foundation in the report titled “The Color of Crime”.

The National Criminal Justice Reference Service links to TCoC here:

http://ncjrs.gov/spotlight/Hate_Crimes/publications.html

Walter Williams discusses the 1998 version of TCoC here:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams081899.asp

The other link in the post above, to the piece by Kathleen Parker, directly sources the NCVS data (which is consistent with the TCoC data) found here:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus/current/cv0342.pdf

Why can’t people ever do their own homework before flapping their lips?

People used to think the Earth was flat, and that the idea that the Earth revolved around the Sun was “preposterous” too.

The Earth is not round?

Svigor,

The original post by Kathleen Parker.

Please read the footnotes:
“Estimates based upon about 10 OR FEWER cases”
also
“includes threats of rape and threats of sexual assualt”

Before quoting New Century Foundation, you may want to research the organization:

“Founded by Samuel Jared Taylor in 1990, The New Century Foundation – known primarily by the name of its publication, American Renaissance—promotes “genteel” racism: pseudoscientific, questionably researched and argued articles that validate the genetic and moral inferiority of nonwhites and the need for racial “purity.” Generally avoiding overt bigotry and stereotyping, many of North America’s leading intellectual racists have written for the journal or have addressed the biannual American Renaissance conferences. At the conferences and in his publications, Taylor refrains from anti-Semitism.”

Your referenced research comes from an organization which has also argued that black people have smaller brains than white people because their sexual organs are bigger – and everyone knows you can’t have both. (1996 New Century Foundation annual meeting)

If you still hold to your previous statement, then we will happily ignore you as a boorish racist.

“The rape accusation against the USC quarterback: He’s Hispanic, not black.”

I got the two mixed up, and stand corrected.

Please be careful to check your “facts” before posting them.

I was going to say the same thing to you, but since you haven’t posted any facts, just sputtered about what you consider “preposterous”...

1) The gal said one of the attackers looked like a photo “but without the moustache”

http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4–728827.html

Looking at a photo lineup, the dancer told police the man in question “looks just like him without the mustache,” the lawyers said, citing a written investigative report.

But the alleged third rapist had no mustache on the relevant night, if he ever had one, according to attorneys. They said photographs and eyewitnesses would prove their point.

“Estimates based upon about 10 OR FEWER cases”

That’s the NCVS data. They gather all the info available.

“Before quoting New Century Foundation, you may want to research the organization”

“Founded [snipped for formatting reasons”

I see nothing there about TCoC there, or anything that actually refutes any publication by TNCF.

Do you have anything like that, or just guilt-by-association ad hom? Where’s your quote from, btw?

“Your referenced research comes from an organization which has also argued that black people have smaller brains than white people because their sexual organs are bigger and everyone knows you can’t have both. (1996 New Century Foundation annual meeting)”

Please cite the source for TNCF‘s argument about blacks having smaller brains than whites because their sexual organs are bigger. This oughta be a hoot.

“If you still hold to your previous statement, then we will happily ignore you as a boorish racist.”

“Preposterous,” “boorish,” “racist”; I note that none of these is synonymous with “incorrect” or “wrong” or “mistaken”. Is this how you normally argue in this situation? You just stomp your feet and cry racism and hope your opponent runs away? Have you emailed The National Criminal Justice Reference Service to ask them about their “boorish” racism?

Sorry about the bad formatting in that post, I had a ridiculous number of problems quoting azbballfan due to the odd formatting in his post.

Svigor,

One last response before I happily ignore you for the remainder.

Your quoted research was not based upon NCVS data. The entire study included reference to some NCVS data, but your specific quote referenced the study paid for by the New Century Foundation and is based upon 10 or FEWER cases. Go back and look at your link.

Here, boorish is incorrect, wrong, and mistaken. If you want real statistics, go to the ADOJ site, which reports far fewer rape cases in total and also shows a breakdown of inter-racial crime stats. I chose not to reference the statistics because they don’t indicate any trends or tendencies which mean anything.

My quotes referencing the racist objectives of New Century Foundation comes from SourceWatch – an organization which reports on the activities of institutions who attempt to influence public opinion.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch

Do your own search on New Century Foundation.

And if you’re looking for a friendly audience to your racist blather, here’s the website of one of New Century Foundation’s supporters:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

“Your quoted research was not based upon NCVS data. The entire study included reference to some NCVS data, but your specific quote referenced the study paid for by the New Century Foundation and is based upon 10 or FEWER cases. Go back and look at your link.”

You’ve confused yourself, sort of like the mustache thing. The “10 or fewer” comes from Kathleen Parker’s column, which cites the NCVS data, which I linked to above. That’s where you’ll find the “10 or fewer” thing, in the DoJ’s data.

The other quote, the one from TCoC, is indeed based on NCVS data:

“The NCVS tells us that interracial multiple-offender
offenses are even more lopsidedly black than
interracial crime as a whole. In fact, whereas blacks
committed 10,000 gang-rapes against whites between
2001 and 2003, the NCVS samples did not
pick up a single “white”-on-black gang rape. Overall,
blacks committed an average of 251,000 multiple-
offender violent crimes against whites per year
between 2001 and 2003, and “whites” committed
32,000, which means blacks were the perpetrators
89 percent of the time.49”

As I showed above, TCoC is good enough for Walter Williams (who, as quoted above, has attested that he’s checked the facts), and it’s good enough for the National Criminal Justice Reference service to link to next to other studies (from ADL, law enforcement agencies, academia, etc.), without qualification or comment.

TNCF sent hundreds of copies of TCOC to the media and was met with only silence (there are a few exceptions, like the Washington Times); not one media outlet has debunked it. The SPLC‘s “debunking” of TCoC amounts to a tacit confirmation, as does Tim Wise’.

TNCF is hated enough that someone would’ve controverted its facts if it was possible to do so.

As for SourceWatch, do me a favor and save me some time – do they contradict any findings of fact in TCoC?

Not that it’s germane, but do they contradict any findings of fact published by TNCF?

Surely if TCoC has fudged its data, you can find a source that proves it? I’ve Googled long and hard trying to find such and only been rewarded with eyestrain.

Svigor –
Why bother questioning a report issued by a vehemently white supremist organization? The motives alone are boorish enough to ignore. Again, look at the report itself – the researcher didn’t even have the guts to fake data – so she admitted she made it up!!!!! (reported rapes of over 10,000 of blacks against whites based upon evidence of reports of less than 10 – which included reports of threatened rape). The researcher added a few statistics from the DOJ which didn’t show racism just so she and losers such as yourself could claim you used DOJ evidence.

Yes, the DOJ real evidence does refute the claims of the white supremist report. Actually, they show evidence that white’s are more racist in their crimes against blacks than the other way around. I just chose to ignore this, since reporting facts which show racism to sickos like you only gives you more ammunition to spread the hate. To which I say, find some other place to fuck off.

Reference to the study being written by a white supremist foundation:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=New_Century_Foundation

Here’s the white supremist foundation who wrote the report you love to cite:
http://www.amren.com/

And here’s the site of one of your supporters:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

If you believe the spew of your own organizations and still think you are smart, then you must have a very small pee pee. As your own organization claims that anyone with a large brain has a small weiner. (Philippe Rushton – 1996 New Rennaisance conference)

Again, the report you link to and spew from over and over again admits that it creates incredible gross generalizations based upon “10 or fewer” events it reports upon.

Certainly you aren’t brave enough to show your face and spew this crap. So go climb under that rock you crawled out from under and do whatever makes you start “cumming in your New Century Foudation issued spandex ”.

Why bother questioning a report issued by a vehemently white supremist organization? The motives alone are boorish enough to ignore. Again, look at the report itself – the researcher didn’t even have the guts to fake data – so she admitted she made it up!!!!! (reported rapes of over 10,000 of blacks against whites based upon evidence of reports of less than 10 – which included reports of threatened rape). The researcher added a few statistics from the DOJ which didn’t show racism just so she and losers such as yourself could claim you used DOJ evidence.

I have no idea who this "she" you're referring to is; no idea where this admission you refer to occurs; where you get the idea that in TCoC the 10k gang-rapes vs whites is based on less than 10 cases (you're still referring to table 42 of NCVS, whereas TCoC uses granular NCVS data not publicly available).

"White supremist," "boorish," "racism," "losers"; again, this seems to be the only kind of "argument" you have.

I'm curious, you refer to TNCF as "vehemently white supremist"; could you point out a mildly "white supremist" organization so I can compare? If TNCF is "vehemently white supremist," what does that make Aryan Nations? I don't think your scale (implied as it is by your characterization of TNCF) makes much sense. Then again, I don't think you could do a satisfactory job of defining "white supremist" either.

I'm also curious if you can explain your assertion that boorish motives gives you an excuse to ignore data. Do you have a logically (or even ethically) sound defense of this idea?

Yes, the DOJ real evidence does refute the claims of the white supremist report.

How so? (You do know "supremist" isn't a real word, right?)

Actually, they show evidence that white’s are more racist in their crimes against blacks than the other way around.

How so?

I just chose to ignore this, since reporting facts which show racism to sickos like you only gives you more ammunition to spread the hate. To which I say, find some other place to fuck off.

"Racism," "sickos," "fuck off"; again, it seems like this is the only form of "argument" available to you.

Reference to the study being written by a white supremist foundation:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=New_Century_Foundation

Sourcewatch is basically a wiki. A wiki isn't the best source of information on controversial subjects, amounting as it does to truth-by-concensus.

If you believe the spew of your own organizations and still think you are smart, then you must have a very small pee pee. As your own organization claims that anyone with a large brain has a small weiner. (Philippe Rushton – 1996 New Rennaisance conference)

Do you have a source for your repeated assertion that "my" organization states that white=smart=small pee pee? Do you have a source for your assertion that "my" organization claims that "anyone with a large brain has a small weiner"?

Do you have a quote from Rushton? Btw, Rushton doesn't represent Amren or TNCF as far as I know.

"Small pee pee," "small weiner"; again, this sort of thing seems like the only "argument" available to you.

Again, the report you link to and spew from over and over again admits that it creates incredible gross generalizations based upon “10 or fewer” events it reports upon.

Again, you're confused. You are conflating table 42 of the DoJ's NCVS online data with TCoC.

Certainly you aren't brave enough to show your face and spew this crap. So go climb under that rock you crawled out from under and do whatever makes you start "cumming in your New Century Foudation issued spandex".

"Aren't brave," "spew this crap," "go climb under that rock you crawled out from under," "cumming in your New Century Foundation issued spandex"; do you honestly think any of that is persuasive? Well, okay, it's persuasive as to your character, but of nothing else.

You seem very confused, angry, and irrational. Perhaps you should just make good on your promises and recuse yourself.

Also, I'd like to point out that my motivations are irrelevant. Many thought that Galileo and his ilk were trying to destroy Christianity or the Church with their heliocentrism and whatnot; turns out that, in the long run, no one much cares anymore if they were. All that matters is that they were right (or at least, more right than their opponents).

Let's assume for a moment for the purposes of argument that I am motivated by racial hostility; does that change the facts on the ground? Does that mean that those motivated by racial amity should stick their heads in the ground? No, of course it doesn't.

Uh, kids, I’ve been nice and tolerant of this thread… but it seems to be going around in circles. I’m closing it… and play nicely in the future, please.